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Meeting Details

Regulatory Panel
19 Oct 2022 - 16:00 to 17:58
Scheduled
  • Documents
  • Attendance
  • Visitors
  • Declarations of Interests

Documents

Agenda

Standard Items
APOLOGIES FOR ABSENCE
To receive apologies for absence and notification of substitutions.
RP.53/22
Apologies for absence were submitted on behalf of Councillor Alcroft and Councillor Nedved.
DECLARATIONS OF INTEREST
Members are invited to declare any disclosable pecuniary interests, other registrable interests and any interests, relating to any items on the agenda at this stage.
RP.54/22
There were no declarations of interest submitted.
PUBLIC AND PRESS
To agree that the items of business within Part A of the agenda should be dealt with in public and that the items of business within Part B of the agenda should be dealt with in private.
RP.55/22
It was agreed that the items of business in Part A be dealt with in public and the item of business in Part B be dealt with then the public and press were excluded.
To note that Council, at its meeting on 11 October 2022, received and adopted the minutes of the meetings held on 6 July and 21 July 2022.  The Chair will sign the minutes. 
[Copy minutes in Minute Book 49(2)]. 

The Chair will move the minutes of the meeting held on 14 September 2022 as a correct record.  The only part of the minutes that may be discussed is their accuracy. 
(Copy minutes herewith)

RP.56/22
RESOLVED - 1) That Council, at its meeting on 11 October 2022, received and adopted the minutes of the meetings held on 6 July and 21 July 2022.  The Chair signed the minutes.

2) That the minutes of the meeting held on 14 September 2022 be agreed as a correct record.
Public Items

The Licensing Manager to present an application for a new Private Hire Operator.

(Copy Report GD.63/22 herewith)

RP.57/22

The Licensing Manager submitted an application from Carlisle 247365 Taxis for a new Private Hire Operator Licence. (GD.63/22)

Susan Taylor, Director and Brian Dorrance, Director were in attendance.

The Lead Senior Lawyer (Environment and Regulatory) outlined the procedure the Panel would follow.  Mrs Taylor and Mr Dorrance confirmed that they had received, read and understood the Licensing Manager's report.  The Lead Senior Lawyer (Environment and Regulatory) advised Mrs Taylor and Mr Dorrance that they had the right to be represented but they indicated that they would not be so represented.

The Licensing Manager reminded the Panel that they had, on 14 September 2022, resolved to revoke the Private Hire Operator Licence for Mr Philip Taylor for Carlisle 247365 Taxi as he was not a fit and proper person to hold the licence (Report GD 47/22).  Mr Taylor and Mr Dorrance were named as Directors of the company Carlisle 247365 on Mr Taylor's revoked licence and Lesley Wood was listed as an employee. 


The new application listed six people who would be concerned with the operating of the
vehicles and those names included Mr Taylor as an employee, Ms Wood as an employee and Mr Dorrance as a Director.

Due to the continued involvement of personnel in the company the application was referred to the Regulatory Panel for determination.

The Licensing Manager  had discussed the application with Susan Taylor, Director and requested evidence 
that Mr Taylor had sold his share of the company in order to determine his position and influence.  As the Regulatory Panel had determined that Mr Taylor was not a fit and proper person to hold a Private Hire Operator Licence it was relevant that questions were asked and evidence was sought in order for the Licensing Authority to discharge its duty to public safety.  Information was also sought on whether bookings were to be operated from Mr Dorrance’s home address in Chapleknowe as this practice was exposed in the previous investigation into the 247365 Operation.

The Licensing Manager stated that 
Private Hire Operator Licences specifically related to the address of the licensed private hire base. The licences were not transferable to individuals or companies.  All bookings taken for private hire vehicles must be received through their licensed private hire operating base, which in this case would be the Fisher Street address.  Paragraph 4.7 of the Council’s policy covers the Address from which an Operator can operate; all bookings were to be taken through the Fisher Street address and the practice of taking bookings elsewhere was contrary to policy.

Mrs Taylor and the Licensing Manager exchanged emails regarding the relevance of the questioning as detailed in Appendix 4. No further evidence had been received from the applicant in support of their application to date.


Mrs Taylor addressed the Panel in support of the application.  She explained that she had asked Mr Taylor (who was not related to her) to remain as an employee to assist her in the transition period.  She assured the Panel that Mr Taylor did not own any shares of the business, the Panel agreed that she could circulate a copy of the information from Companies House which showed she owned 33% of the shares, Mr Dorrance owned 50% and Mr Guardhouse owned 17%.

Referring to the telephones being answered in Chapelknowe, Mr Dorrance explained that he had became ill three years ago and was no longer able to drive a taxi.  He lived in a rural location with limited public access, he was also partially sighted which meant he could not use public transport and was unable to get to Carlisle to answer the phones, the cloud based telephone system meant he could work from home.

Mrs Taylor added that the telephones were answered from Chapelknowe during lock down when everyone had to work from home and had remained that way.

Mrs Taylor informed the Panel that 247365 had moved into Fisher Street in 2020 and was operated between 6am and 6pm seven days a week.  A driver operated the evening bookings through Whatsapp and this was a model used by several other businesses in Carlisle.  Should the licence not be granted then there would be 6 - 10 private hire drivers not working and 25/30 vehicles off the road.  In addition 5-6 school contracts would be lost.  Mrs Taylor explained that she was a passenger assistant and worked daily with children with special needs.  She understood that small changes to the contracts, such as different drivers, could have a big impact on a child and cause them stress. 

The plan was to grow the business, operating it 24 hours a day and more people would be employed but to afford another operator the business needed more contracts.  Mrs Taylor acknowledged she was a first time applicant stating that she had not been responsible for the previous licence, she wanted to work with the Licensing Office and make the business successful.


Mrs Taylor responded to questions from the Panel and clarified the following:
- there were 6-10 private hire drivers and the rest of the drivers were hackney carriage drivers;
- the driver who managed the evening bookings only managed the hackney carriage bookings via Whatsapp;
- she had read the minutes from the previous meeting and reassured the Panel that the requirements of the licence would be adhered to;
- she dealt with the contracts and drivers and had put measures in place and made changes, she took the matter seriously;
- all drivers records had been updated and all DBS checks had been undertaken;
- the Directors would meet monthly and and have minutes of the meetings;
- it was expected that Mr Taylor would leave the company at the end of 2022 or January 2023 once the busy period had passed; 
- she dealt with the contracts for both 247365 and Coast2Coast, she was the contract manager for Coast2Coast and had been the change that Mr Taylor had introduced;
- Mr Taylor had no influence over the business, she took full responsibility.  He was there in an advisory role only;
- she understood the legal implications and why Mr Taylor could not be involved, she had been honest in the application regarding his involvement and wanted help and support and to work with everyone;

Mr Dorrance responded to questions from the Panel and clarified the following:
- the cloud based system was registered at both the Fisher Street premises and the Chapelknowe address as two separate business lines had to be installed;
- he had planned to retire at the end of the year, if the answering of the phone at Chapelknowe impacted the licence he would bring that forward;
 
The Licensing Manager responded to comments made during the discussions with Mrs Taylor and Mr Dorrance:
- each application had to be considered on its own merits, how other businesses operated were not for the consideration of the Panel today;
- the Private Hire Operator Licence required that records were kept for all bookings / dispatch including hackney carriage bookings;
- the Council Policy required the operating base for Private Hire Operators to be within the District.

The Licensing Manager drew Members' attention to the legislation which they must take account of and set out the options for the Panel.

The respective parties then withdrew from the meeting whilst the Panel gave detailed consideration to the matter.  The respective parties returned, and it was:

RESOLVED – That the Regulatory Panel had carefully considered and read evidence in report GD.63/22 and heard from the Council’s Licensing Manager and Mrs Taylor and Mr Dorrance, Directors, Carlisle 247365 Taxis Ltd.


The application had been brought before the Panel due to the continued involvement of personnel from a company that had the previous Private Hire Operator Licence revoked.

The Panel decided to approve the application with the following conditions (subject to attendance by the remaining Directors on the Disability Awareness and Safeguarding Training):


- compliance with the booking records requirements as set out in Section 4.12 of the Carlisle City Council Hackney Carriage and Private Hire Licensing Policy 2022-2027;
- the business has to operate from one address (as applied for) and the telephone for the operation must be answered from the registered address only to comply with Section 4.7 of the Carlisle City Council Hackney Carriage and Private Hire Licensing Policy 2022-2027;
- the cloud based telephone system which the operator uses must be registered at the application address only.

The Licensing Manager to submit a report a Hackney Carriage Driver.

(Copy Report GD.62/22 herewith)

RP.58/22

The Licensing Manager submitted a report detailing the failure by a Hackney Carriage Driver to provide required documents in order to ascertain continued fitness and propriety to hold the Licence (GD.62/22).

The Licensing Manager reported that several attempts to contact Mr Jackson, the Hackney Carriage Driver, had been made including letters and telephone calls.  Mr Jackson had not responded to the Licensing Office and was not in attendance at the meeting.

The Panel noted that Mr Jackson had not communicated with the Licensing Office and agreed to consider the matter in his absence.


The Licensing Manager reported that the Hackney Carriage Driver ('the Driver') had held a Hackney Carriage Driver licence since 2004.  His current licence commenced in July 2021 and would expire in July 2024.  The Driver had four penalty points on his record for smoking or evidence of smoking in a vehicle.  The points were due to expire in February 2024.

The Driver's Disclosure and Barring Service (DBS) certificate had been due to be renewed in August 2021, he completed the required form which was countersigned by a Licensing Officer.  The required certificate would be sent directly to the Driver and the onus was on him to present it to the Licensing Office.  All licence holders were aware that it was their duty to provide the information.

The Licensing Office had contacted the Driver on several occasions to request the certificate and, following a review of the licence, it was noted that the Driver had not returned his KYP DVLA mandate that had been sent to him in April 2022 and his medical had also been due in July 2022.  The Driver was contacted in August 2922 by telephone followed by a letter requesting the required paperwork by 2 September 2022.  On 13 September the Driver was contacted again via telephone but had not been answered and a further voicemail was left for him on 15 September.  The Driver made no contact with the Licensing Officer, a further letter was sent to him on 20 September 2022 notifying him that the matter would be considered by the Regulatory Panel.


RESOLVED – That the Regulatory Panel had carefully considered and read evidence in report GD.62/22 and heard from the Council’s Licensing Manager.

The application had been brought before the Panel because the Hackney carriage Driver had not provided copies of his DBS Certificate, DVLA Mandate form and GP medical despite several requests from the Licensing Authority to do so.  The documents are required to ascertain the Driver’s continued fitness and propriety to hold the Licence.

The Panel decided to revoke the Driver’s Hackney Carriage Driving Licence with immediate effect.


The Panel gave the following reasons for the decision:
     1.  The Panel had a duty of care to the public and must be satisfied that  Mr Jackson was a fit and proper person to hold Hackney Carriage Driver’s Licence;
     2. The Hackney Carriage Driver had not made any contact with the Licensing Office despite several calls and letters and did not attend the meeting of the Regulatory Panel;
     3. The Hackney Carriage Driver failed to meet the requirements of his Hackney Carriage Drivers licence and the Panel were unable to confirm that he remained a fit and proper person to hold the licence;
     4. The Panel were concerned that there was a potentially grave risk of harm to fare paying passengers and members of the public.

The Hackney Carriage Driver would be informed of the decision in writing along with rights of appeal.

Exempt Items
B.1 HACKNEY CARRIAGE DRIVER APPLICATION

*** This report is not for publication by virtue of Paragraph 1 of Part 1 of Schedule 12A to the Local Government Act 1972 as it contains information relating to any individual. ***

 

The Licensing Manager to present an application for a new Hackney Carriage Driver licence.

(Copy Report GD.50/22 herewith)








Members of the Regulatory Panel:

Conservative – Mrs Bowman, Ms Ellis-Williams (Chair), Mrs Mitchell, Meller, Morton, Shepherd, Bainbridge (sub), Mrs Mallinson (sub), J Mallinson (sub)
Labour – Alcroft, Sunter, Dr Tickner, Miss Whalen (Vice Chair),  Birks (sub) Patrick (sub), Miss Sherriff (sub)
Independent and Liberal Democrat - Pickstone, Allison (sub)
Independent Member for Stanwix and Houghton - Nedved


Enquiries, requests for reports, background papers etc to: 
democraticservices@carlisle.gov.uk

Attendance

Name
No other member attendance information has been recorded for the meeting.
NameReason for Sending ApologySubstituted By
Councillor Ruth Alcroft Councillor Pamela Birks
Councillor Paul Nigel Hamilton Nedved  
NameReason for AbsenceSubstituted By
No absentee information has been recorded for the meeting.

Declarations of Interests

Member NameItem Ref.DetailsNature of DeclarationAction
No declarations of interest have been entered for this meeting.

Visitors

Officers:     Lead Senior Lawyer (Environment and Regulatory)
                    Licensing Manager
                    Licensing Officer x2