Meeting Details

Question to Cllr John Mallinson

“In response to a question at the Executive on 27 September 2021 regarding the Council’s the exclusion of the James Street Baths from the maintenance programme, you replied that "the Victorian and Turkish Baths has been taken out of the maintenance programme while the capital works are undertaken as part of the Borderlands Station gateway project as there won't be any need for maintenance during this period. Once these works are completed and assessed, the Baths will be included in the programme."

As the Borderland Station gateway project capital works are due to commence - and may conclude - before the vesting date for the Cumberland Council, what budgetary provision has been made for the maintenance of the James Street Baths in the maintenance programme that will be transferred to the Cumberland Council?”

Councillor John Mallinson responded as follows: Once GLL had moved to The Sands, the Turkish Baths would be under the Council’s control, it would consider the future maintenance of the facility as part of the development of the new Cumberland Council.  The facility would be part of the asset transfer process from the City Council to the new unitary authority which was required to be completed by Vesting Day.   

Cumberland Council would be responsible for determining its own financial priorities, Councillor John Mallinson felt it was extremely optimistic for the Turkish baths to be re-opened by 1st April 2023.

A Part B report was to be submitted to the Executive meeting of 25 July 2002 in relation to the Station Gateway Project and would provide further details and proposals regarding the management implications of the project.

The Mayor advised Mrs Yeates that should she wish to, she may ask a supplemental question.  

Mrs Yeates asked the following supplemental question: Given the answer to the earlier question, could an assurance be given that the Turkish Baths would remain open in October 2022, and a meeting be arranged with Councillor Fryer, Leader of Cumberland Council and The Friends to discuss revenue provision for 2022/23 and 2023/24?

Councillor J Mallinson responded as follows: It was not possible to say whether the facility would remain open.  He had written to Councillor Fryer on the matter of the Turkish Baths which he anticipated would generate some discussion that he would engage with.  

Question to Cllr Liz Mallinson

“What steps are being taken by Carlisle City Council, in partnership with NHS England and the North Cumbria Clinical Commissioning Group, to assess the role the aqua-thermal and hydro-therapeutic facilities of Carlisle Turkish Baths play in supporting the health and wellbeing of local people”.

Councillor Mrs Mallinson responded as follows: 

The benefits of aqua-thermal and hydro-therapeutic treatments to both NHS patients and the general public were well documented and understood across existing health partnerships. Reducing pain and inflammation, increasing blood flow, reducing anxiety and contribution to good mental health just a few of the positive outcomes.

This Council had a strong relationship with the NHS, both with the North Cumbria Foundation Trust and the emerging North East and North Cumbria Integrated Care System, this replaced the former Clinical Commissioning Group. In particular the Council had worked closely with the NCIC Musculoskeletal team who were playing a significant role in the Sands Centre redevelopment and would be joining GLL to open the site in September. 

This Council fully understood the issues relating to the availability of hydrotherapy facilities in its part of the ICS area. Having this week been in touch with the NHS on this the Portfolio Holder had been told that at present their consultants made very few referrals for hydrotherapy treatment within the NHS and those that were go to the NHS Trust facility in Newcastle. The Council had opened a dialogue with MSK colleagues at the Trust to look into the facility.

There was no Hydrotherapy pool at the Turkish Baths and the capital and revenue costs of developing to 'NHS standard' facilities were not known. The Council awaited the business case from the Friends of the Turkish Baths when it comes to Scrutiny in August with the costings of  a new Hydrotherapy Pool and the running of it including the cost of the energy and staffing costs to run it had to be taken into account.  Also to take into account with a Hydrotherapy Pool was its High Carbon Footprint and Energy consumption

The Council were fully engaged in determining a sustainable future for the Turkish Baths, its officer team was regularly meeting with the Friends group and continued to work in partnership with the NHS to ensure that Carlisle residents had accessible health facilities. The Portfolio Holder undertook to continue to report progress to future Council meeting.  

The Mayor advised Mrs Yeates that should she wish to, she may ask a supplemental question.  

Mrs Yeates asked the following supplemental question: The Turkish baths were an important part of Cumbria's heritage and played an important and active role in health; could a meeting be arranged with Councillor Martin Harris, Adults Portfolio Holder, Cumberland Council, The Friends and Councillor Liz Mallinson to see how the Turkish Baths may be supported now, through Local Government Reorganisation and by Cumberland Council. 

Councillor Mrs Mallinson responded that she was happy to do so.  

“Could the Leader inform members what measures the Council, both through its own work and by working with partners, is able to put in place to help residents who are struggling as a result of the current 'cost of living crisis', both in general and also those for residents in rural areas? “

The Leader responded as follows:
The Council had a long track record of providing for residents' needs.  The 'cost of living crisis' was a very broad topic, an example of the work the Council had undertaken to support residents was the disbursement of energy discount scheme payment through Council Tax.  The Leader stated he would support the provision of any measures used to assist residents affected. 

Councillor Pickstone asked the following supplemental question:
Residents in the rural area were impacted by the cost of fuel as there was no mains gas provision which government could do simple things to alleviate for example imposing a rural fuel duty or relaxing regulations for heating and LPG. 

The Leader responded as follows:
The 'cost of living crisis' was a very serious issue which created particular pressures in the rural areas.  The Leader would welcome support from government or other parties to assist in the alleviation of the extreme pressure faced by some residents.  

(ii) Pursuant to Procedure Rule 11.2, the Corporate Director of Governance and Regulatory Services to report that the following question has been submitted by Councillor Dr Davison:

“Following the detailed and informative presentation to Council from the Friends of the Victorian and Turkish Baths on 26 April 2022:

1. Would the council leader give Council an update on action that the Executive has taken to ensure that the baths don't close when the baths at the Sands Centre open?

2. Has the Executive found the anticipated required monies from the council budget to pay for GLL to continue to run it and avoid the risk that it will never be able to be re-opened if it stops operating, losing this precious asset to our community permanently?

3. What is the Executive's view on the Friends' group proposal that two years' funding for the baths, to keep them open whilst the second stage of their viability study is completed, be included in the City Council's investment plan for the £4.1 million the council will be receiving from the government's UK Shared Prosperity Fund?”

The Leader responded as follows: 

The issues related to the ongoing costs and operation of this facility were well documented and had been subject to discussion amongst Executive members and officers. This dialogue had led to further negotiations with the current operator GLL who would no longer be responsible for the facility once the Sands open.

Members may recall that on 25 June 2019 the Council resolved to proceed with the development of the Sands Centre and the sensitive redevelopment of the Turkish Bath / Victorian Health Suite.  

At present it was anticipated that the net monthly costs of the operation of the Turkish Baths (not including the Victorian pools) would be approximately £14,750.  This included a significant uplift in energy costs and GLL overheads and commission.  Should the Turkish Baths continue to operate post the Sands opening then the Council would need to agree a way forward and funding for this extended period. The total potential cost to the authority in its last Council year (2022/23) was estimated to be £103,250.  This amount was outside of the Council's agreed budget and policy framework and would be funded from an in year virement or a supplementary estimate. The latter would need to be agreed at Full Council.

For completeness, Councillor J Mallinson noted that these net costs, whilst significant in themselves were more concerning when considered with the number of individuals currently using the facilities.  During April to end of June this year 1835 visits were made to the site. This equated to a Council cost / visit of circa £24.  Although the health benefits of using these facilities was known, the subsidies were not insubstantial and needed careful consideration.

Regarding the Friends' Group two-year funding proposals and the Shared Prosperity Fund Investment Plan, the City Council was finalising its draft Investment Plans for submission to Government in August.  The proposals put forward by the Friends' Group would be considered alongside all the other valuable contributions the Council had received from partners across the district and across the wider Cumberland area. The competition would be fierce as the fund was significantly oversubscribed.

The Friends' proposals, like all submissions, would need to be considered against the investment plan guidance and assessed in terms of value for money using the government assessment methods.  Given that the Friends' plans related to years two and three of the Investment Plan they would also need to be considered by the new authority who would be taking responsibility for the site from April 2023. Councillor J Mallinson had written to the Leader of the Shadow Authority to ask for his views on the future financial support of the Turkish Baths.

Councillor Dr Davison asked the following supplemental question:  

Given the answer to the preceding question, may Members be provided with a timetable with an expected timetable of activity?  If GLL were to take over the Turkish Baths it would need to move swiftly and assurance was needed that the relevant budget was in place.  Councillor Dr Davison understood the need for due process to be carried out, she asked the Executive to making a commitment to actively pushing for the facility to remain open rather than letting it slide and close. 

The Leader responded as follows:
Currently, the Sands Centre development was on schedule for The Pools to open, although the schedule was tight and there were a number of known issues.  Were GLL to continue to operate the Turkish Baths it would need appropriate notice to be given.  A private report on the Station Gateway project was to be submitted to the next meeting of the Executive, and discussions needed to be held with the Leader of Cumberland Council, in addition to due process work. 

Whether the Turkish Baths were to remain open or to close, neither would happen as a result of time being allowed to run out.